I think Envy’s response was over the top but to be fair here, you’re the one who started with black-and-white discourse by putting anything remotely related to Palestine/Gaza into the antisemitism box. I wish you would just acknowledge that you posted misinformation, it’s not a big deal.
I’m suggesting it’s more likely that the red arrow Hamas uses is referring to the holocaust instead of the arab identity. Why would they highlight targets in their propaganda videos with their own ethnic identity when they have an extensive history of antisemitism?
No I understood you. I know you’re suggesting that, and your source is that it looks similar to a symbol that most people don’t even know and that wasn’t antisemitic to begin with because it was used for a variety of political prisoners.
Look you can cast doubt on what Hamas was thinking internally, by all means. But the generally accepted origin (which is what matters) is the Palestinian flag. So when you act like this symbol is definitely a symbol of antisemitism you’re stooping to tankie-level campist discourse and spreading misinformation.
It’s not a label. They’re not saying “hey here’s the jew symbol, there’s jews inside”. They used it to mark their targets “Here’s our symbol, that’s where we strike.”
I think Envy’s response was over the top but to be fair here, you’re the one who started with black-and-white discourse by putting anything remotely related to Palestine/Gaza into the antisemitism box.
… that Hamas is antisemitic is not exactly a shocking revelation. The red triangle remains controversial and the connection to the Holocaust is not easily dismissed - not least because the inverted red triangle as a stand-alone symbol had very little currency in modern discourse before Hamas started using it to mark Israeli targets.
You’re kinda proving my point. Whether or not Hamas is antisemitic says absolutely nothing about whether the symbol is.
Let’s create our own reality where symbols mean something else so we can demonize the people we hate better! Yay, now we’ve reached tankie-levels of campism.
You’re kinda proving my point. Whether or not Hamas is antisemitic says absolutely nothing about whether the symbol is.
… if the symbol has an immediate and visceral connection to historical antisemitism, is used by an antisemitic group, and has little history of use before its use against an enemy perceived as Jewish…
… what exactly do you think the symbol is, if not antisemitic?
This is basic dogwhistle shit. Next will you tell me the iron cross has a history outside of Nazism, so neonazis and their supporters using it means nothing, actually?
Let’s create our own reality where symbols mean something else so we can demonize the people we hate better! Yay, now we’ve reached tankie-levels of campism.
No, this is examining context and usage to determine that it is most likely a symbol used by antisemites with antisemitic reasons in an antisemitic context, despite the attempts of other people to adopt the symbol - as used by antisemites, for antisemitic reasons - for non-antisemitic reasons. And, considering that the symbol has been used in real-world attacks on non-Israeli Jews, and that many of the people we’re discussing - campist fuckwits - are openly on the record as being pro-ethnic cleansing of Jewish people, specifically, from a one-state solution in the region, I don’t really think that “This symbol isn’t antisemitic!” holds much water.
as an immediate and visceral connection to historical antisemitism
Not really. The Nazis had symbols for Jews, this symbol was used for various non-Jewish prisoners as well. And it was used for prisoners, not targets.
And then you just repeated your same argument that
Hamas is antisemitic and they use the symbol so it’s antisemitic.
And then you add a new argument: that tankies use the symbol and they are pro-ethnic cleansing which is the same as being antisemitic (it isn’t) so the symbol is antisemitic
But there’s also plenty of people who aren’t antisemitic who use the symbol.
Sorry it just doesn’t convince me. The symbol may be problematic since it’s often used to designate targets, but this connection to the holocaust is just not accurate.
Anyway I don’t rlly care that much, I don’t use the symbol nor do I like it, I just got triggered by blatant misinformation. Sorry for getting all heated.
Not really. The Nazis had symbols for Jews, this symbol was used for various non-Jewish prisoners as well. And it was used for prisoners, not targets.
And?
And then you just repeated your same argument that Hamas is antisemitic and they use the symbol so it’s antisemitic.
“The Holocaust deniers use a symbol from the Holocaust to mark people they characterize as Jews for death”
If it were any other antisemitic group, would you be bending backwards to accommodate their introduction of such a symbol?
And then you add a new argument: that tankies use the symbol and they are pro-ethnic cleansing which is the same as being antisemitic (it isn’t) so the symbol is antisemitic
“It’s not antisemitic to want to ethnically cleanse Jews from a region!”
Holy fucking shit, are you being serious?
But there’s also plenty of people who aren’t antisemitic who use the symbol.
Which has all the validity of anti-capitalists deciding to use the swastika in honor of the Strasserists, whilst insisting that they aren’t onboard with the whole antisemitism thing, just the anti-capitalism.
Sorry it just doesn’t convince me. The symbol may be problematic since it’s often used to designate targets, but this connection to the holocaust is just not accurate.
I note again
“The Holocaust deniers use a symbol from the Holocaust to mark people they characterize as Jews for death”
Christ, it’s like talking to a conservative claiming that MAGA merch being sold for $14.88 means nothing.
I think Envy’s response was over the top but to be fair here, you’re the one who started with black-and-white discourse by putting anything remotely related to Palestine/Gaza into the antisemitism box. I wish you would just acknowledge that you posted misinformation, it’s not a big deal.
oh, no, you misunderstand me.
I’m suggesting it’s more likely that the red arrow Hamas uses is referring to the holocaust instead of the arab identity. Why would they highlight targets in their propaganda videos with their own ethnic identity when they have an extensive history of antisemitism?
No I understood you. I know you’re suggesting that, and your source is that it looks similar to a symbol that most people don’t even know and that wasn’t antisemitic to begin with because it was used for a variety of political prisoners.
Look you can cast doubt on what Hamas was thinking internally, by all means. But the generally accepted origin (which is what matters) is the Palestinian flag. So when you act like this symbol is definitely a symbol of antisemitism you’re stooping to tankie-level campist discourse and spreading misinformation.
Okay, so why would Hamas highlight their enemies with the Palestinian flag?
Why wouldn’t they?
It’s not a label. They’re not saying “hey here’s the jew symbol, there’s jews inside”. They used it to mark their targets “Here’s our symbol, that’s where we strike.”
Why don’t’ they use the symbol as it appears in their own flag, ie pointing right?
Instead they use it pointing down like the Nazis did.
So it’s just a call of duty decal?
What about the rampant antisemitism?
… that Hamas is antisemitic is not exactly a shocking revelation. The red triangle remains controversial and the connection to the Holocaust is not easily dismissed - not least because the inverted red triangle as a stand-alone symbol had very little currency in modern discourse before Hamas started using it to mark Israeli targets.
You’re kinda proving my point. Whether or not Hamas is antisemitic says absolutely nothing about whether the symbol is.
Let’s create our own reality where symbols mean something else so we can demonize the people we hate better! Yay, now we’ve reached tankie-levels of campism.
… if the symbol has an immediate and visceral connection to historical antisemitism, is used by an antisemitic group, and has little history of use before its use against an enemy perceived as Jewish…
… what exactly do you think the symbol is, if not antisemitic?
This is basic dogwhistle shit. Next will you tell me the iron cross has a history outside of Nazism, so neonazis and their supporters using it means nothing, actually?
No, this is examining context and usage to determine that it is most likely a symbol used by antisemites with antisemitic reasons in an antisemitic context, despite the attempts of other people to adopt the symbol - as used by antisemites, for antisemitic reasons - for non-antisemitic reasons. And, considering that the symbol has been used in real-world attacks on non-Israeli Jews, and that many of the people we’re discussing - campist fuckwits - are openly on the record as being pro-ethnic cleansing of Jewish people, specifically, from a one-state solution in the region, I don’t really think that “This symbol isn’t antisemitic!” holds much water.
Not really. The Nazis had symbols for Jews, this symbol was used for various non-Jewish prisoners as well. And it was used for prisoners, not targets.
And then you just repeated your same argument that Hamas is antisemitic and they use the symbol so it’s antisemitic.
And then you add a new argument: that tankies use the symbol and they are pro-ethnic cleansing which is the same as being antisemitic (it isn’t) so the symbol is antisemitic
But there’s also plenty of people who aren’t antisemitic who use the symbol.
Sorry it just doesn’t convince me. The symbol may be problematic since it’s often used to designate targets, but this connection to the holocaust is just not accurate.
Anyway I don’t rlly care that much, I don’t use the symbol nor do I like it, I just got triggered by blatant misinformation. Sorry for getting all heated.
And?
“The Holocaust deniers use a symbol from the Holocaust to mark people they characterize as Jews for death”
If it were any other antisemitic group, would you be bending backwards to accommodate their introduction of such a symbol?
“It’s not antisemitic to want to ethnically cleanse Jews from a region!”
Holy fucking shit, are you being serious?
Which has all the validity of anti-capitalists deciding to use the swastika in honor of the Strasserists, whilst insisting that they aren’t onboard with the whole antisemitism thing, just the anti-capitalism.
I note again
“The Holocaust deniers use a symbol from the Holocaust to mark people they characterize as Jews for death”
Christ, it’s like talking to a conservative claiming that MAGA merch being sold for $14.88 means nothing.