For a counterpoint, see the 14th Amendment Section 3:
No person shall be a Senator or Representative in Congress, or elector of President and Vice-President, or hold any office, civil or military, under the United States, or under any State, who, having previously taken an oath, as a member of Congress, or as an officer of the United States, or as a member of any State legislature, or as an executive or judicial officer of any State, to support the Constitution of the United States, shall have engaged in insurrection or rebellion against the same, or given aid or comfort to the enemies thereof. But Congress may by a vote of two-thirds of each House, remove such disability.
This orange piece of shit president we have isn’t qualified under The Constitution to hold office. I wish people would understand how irrelevant The Constitution has become over the past decade.
Constitution only means something if people agree it means something and follow it. It’s a social construct. For example the usa constitution means nothing to other countries, because they choose it not to be anything. USA decided not to follow british rules. Hence the british rules are worthless in USA.
Yeah. Except in that case, they forgot to actually define how to determine when someone has committed insurrection. It seemed pretty obvious at the time…all you needed to know was whether or not the person served in the Confederate army.
So, they left out any real definition beyond that. It isn’t even included in the US criminal code, so you can’t actually charge someone with that particular crime. Which makes that entire amendment, completely useless beyond its application to Confederate soldiers.
Attacking the power transfer is pretty obviously sedition. Courts can declare it and Colorado’s courts did. Then SCOTUS lied and said only congress can
Again, the Constitution itself isn’t clear who decides that…which is why it fell to Congress. They can pass legislation that codifies it in the Criminal Code, or simply vote on it, directly. But simply declaring someone guilty of “sedition” without a trial or clear language defining it, then it isn’t “obvious”.
No, it’s clear enough, other rights could be enforced by courts before legislation was made explicit, this one specifically is very clear on what’s expected even if it doesn’t say by who. That’s exactly where courts can say “until congress decides otherwise, this applies here” like the Colorado supreme court did, because if the method isn’t specified but the result is then the court can choose the method.
In the case of disqualification it’s pretty clear - anybody could challenge a candidate’s right to be on the ballot based on their actions, pointing to the disqualification clause, which the Colorado state did - and then a court with jurisdiction to try constitutional rights test it, like the Colorado Supreme Court did.
All the “ambiguity” they point at is fake wordplay, pretending to not be aware of the history behind the rules which makes it exceedingly clear. There’s no such thing as a constitutional right that can’t be invoked, no matter how much SCOTUS pretends otherwise.
Otherwise constitutional rights simply do not exist, because all you have to do to invalidate them is create a scenario not legislated before.
… Oh right, SCOTUS already blessed “qualified immunity” for cops where not even a law is good enough, but rather a court having to enforce that specific law in that specific scenario - TLDR SCOTUS is full of liars who are exceeding the authority that the constitution gives them.
… But the lower courts have also already started to push back on SCOTUS now fortunately - including instances of reissuing orders blocked by SCOTUS simply motivated by the fact that SCOTUS made the choice to not leave a binding opinion (note that rulings without opinions don’t create binding precedence) and even calling SCOTUS liars on the opinions they did issue. And that’s what Colorado should have done too - reissued the ban against Trump motivated by the fact the SCOTUS did not address the facts and thus their opinion is not applicable.
Right now the real long term solution is taking back a majority in congress and packing the court, declaring the prior SCOTUS rulings invalid (reinstating the 14A3 disqualification and formally accusing the now 6 former justices of material support of enemies of the state)
In the case of disqualification it’s pretty clear - anybody could challenge a candidate’s right to be on the ballot based on their actions, pointing to the disqualification clause, which the Colorado state did - and then a court with jurisdiction to try constitutional rights test it, like the Colorado Supreme Court did.
And there is the problem with this logic. No due process was followed in the Colorado Supreme Court’s decision…which is why it was invalidated. “Disqualification” in this case, was anything but “clear”. Trump was never tried or convicted of seditious conspiracy…which is the closest thing to actual sedition that exists in the criminal code. And getting a conviction on that charge would be next to impossible unless he physically engaged in the crime…which he did not.
Attempting to gain a conviction based simply on the speech he gave, directing people to move on the Capitol would require prosecutors to prove his intent for violence…and that would require them to prove his thoughts and feelings in that moment. Unless they could produce the equivalent of a signed confession, they would not have been able to get that conviction.
The Colorado case didn’t even try to do that. They made their argument the same way you are…by asserting your opinion that the crime should be considered “obvious”, and that Trump should be found guilty without due process or any evidence to prove their claim. That is not how the law works.
This is why the case being brought by Jack Smith had far more merit, and almost certainly would have resulted in Trump’s disqualification, and most likely jail time. He was bringing receipts. Emails, text messages, and internal White House memos and meeting agendas. That’s what you need to convict someone of seditious conspiracy, when they didn’t actively participate in the act of sedition. You have to at least prove the “conspiracy” part, beyond the vague assertion that “everyone knows he did it”.
Unfortunately, Smith ran out of time, and the case was dropped. For the time being, anyway. It can always be brought again, once Trump is no longer in office, since no conclusive verdict was ever reached, the first time.
Then why does so many experts on constitutional history disagree?
Colorado didn’t have jurisdiction to convict, but had jurisdiction to recognize it. The legal process over it was still ongoing then.
It would be absurd to assume you could just appeal yourself out of it, especially when the text clearly says courts can not declare you qualified again, NOT EVEN SCOTUS, 2/3 of congress has to do that - and they didn’t
Then why does so many experts on constitutional history disagree?
What “experts” disagree? The rule of law in this country doesn’t work based on a declaration of guilt. In order for someone to be found guilty of a crime, you need more than a simple accusation…you need a conviction.
Colorado didn’t provide that. None of the States that tried to remove Trump from the ballot, did. The bare minimum would have been for Congress to convict him ceremonially, through impeachment. But, they failed to do that because Democrats didn’t have the votes.
That left only one option…bring charges against him in court, and have a jury decide whether or not his actions met the criteria.
The standard under the constitution is what the standard under the constitution is, not that of current civil prosecution under federal and state law.
Precedence for nullifying the entirety of an invalid appointment and its consequences exist, and were applied when courts unrolled the illegal hostile takeover of USIP
The constitution explicitly were written to only require acts of congress to pardon, but not an act of congress to decide someone was guilty. It’s not even close, that means courts gets to decide. SCOTUS lied.
For a counterpoint, see the 14th Amendment Section 3:
This orange piece of shit president we have isn’t qualified under The Constitution to hold office. I wish people would understand how irrelevant The Constitution has become over the past decade.
Constitution only means something if people agree it means something and follow it. It’s a social construct. For example the usa constitution means nothing to other countries, because they choose it not to be anything. USA decided not to follow british rules. Hence the british rules are worthless in USA.
Yeah. Except in that case, they forgot to actually define how to determine when someone has committed insurrection. It seemed pretty obvious at the time…all you needed to know was whether or not the person served in the Confederate army.
So, they left out any real definition beyond that. It isn’t even included in the US criminal code, so you can’t actually charge someone with that particular crime. Which makes that entire amendment, completely useless beyond its application to Confederate soldiers.
Attacking the power transfer is pretty obviously sedition. Courts can declare it and Colorado’s courts did. Then SCOTUS lied and said only congress can
Again, the Constitution itself isn’t clear who decides that…which is why it fell to Congress. They can pass legislation that codifies it in the Criminal Code, or simply vote on it, directly. But simply declaring someone guilty of “sedition” without a trial or clear language defining it, then it isn’t “obvious”.
No, it’s clear enough, other rights could be enforced by courts before legislation was made explicit, this one specifically is very clear on what’s expected even if it doesn’t say by who. That’s exactly where courts can say “until congress decides otherwise, this applies here” like the Colorado supreme court did, because if the method isn’t specified but the result is then the court can choose the method.
In the case of disqualification it’s pretty clear - anybody could challenge a candidate’s right to be on the ballot based on their actions, pointing to the disqualification clause, which the Colorado state did - and then a court with jurisdiction to try constitutional rights test it, like the Colorado Supreme Court did.
All the “ambiguity” they point at is fake wordplay, pretending to not be aware of the history behind the rules which makes it exceedingly clear. There’s no such thing as a constitutional right that can’t be invoked, no matter how much SCOTUS pretends otherwise.
Otherwise constitutional rights simply do not exist, because all you have to do to invalidate them is create a scenario not legislated before.
… Oh right, SCOTUS already blessed “qualified immunity” for cops where not even a law is good enough, but rather a court having to enforce that specific law in that specific scenario - TLDR SCOTUS is full of liars who are exceeding the authority that the constitution gives them.
… But the lower courts have also already started to push back on SCOTUS now fortunately - including instances of reissuing orders blocked by SCOTUS simply motivated by the fact that SCOTUS made the choice to not leave a binding opinion (note that rulings without opinions don’t create binding precedence) and even calling SCOTUS liars on the opinions they did issue. And that’s what Colorado should have done too - reissued the ban against Trump motivated by the fact the SCOTUS did not address the facts and thus their opinion is not applicable.
Right now the real long term solution is taking back a majority in congress and packing the court, declaring the prior SCOTUS rulings invalid (reinstating the 14A3 disqualification and formally accusing the now 6 former justices of material support of enemies of the state)
And there is the problem with this logic. No due process was followed in the Colorado Supreme Court’s decision…which is why it was invalidated. “Disqualification” in this case, was anything but “clear”. Trump was never tried or convicted of seditious conspiracy…which is the closest thing to actual sedition that exists in the criminal code. And getting a conviction on that charge would be next to impossible unless he physically engaged in the crime…which he did not.
Attempting to gain a conviction based simply on the speech he gave, directing people to move on the Capitol would require prosecutors to prove his intent for violence…and that would require them to prove his thoughts and feelings in that moment. Unless they could produce the equivalent of a signed confession, they would not have been able to get that conviction.
The Colorado case didn’t even try to do that. They made their argument the same way you are…by asserting your opinion that the crime should be considered “obvious”, and that Trump should be found guilty without due process or any evidence to prove their claim. That is not how the law works.
This is why the case being brought by Jack Smith had far more merit, and almost certainly would have resulted in Trump’s disqualification, and most likely jail time. He was bringing receipts. Emails, text messages, and internal White House memos and meeting agendas. That’s what you need to convict someone of seditious conspiracy, when they didn’t actively participate in the act of sedition. You have to at least prove the “conspiracy” part, beyond the vague assertion that “everyone knows he did it”.
Unfortunately, Smith ran out of time, and the case was dropped. For the time being, anyway. It can always be brought again, once Trump is no longer in office, since no conclusive verdict was ever reached, the first time.
Then why does so many experts on constitutional history disagree?
Colorado didn’t have jurisdiction to convict, but had jurisdiction to recognize it. The legal process over it was still ongoing then.
It would be absurd to assume you could just appeal yourself out of it, especially when the text clearly says courts can not declare you qualified again, NOT EVEN SCOTUS, 2/3 of congress has to do that - and they didn’t
What “experts” disagree? The rule of law in this country doesn’t work based on a declaration of guilt. In order for someone to be found guilty of a crime, you need more than a simple accusation…you need a conviction.
Colorado didn’t provide that. None of the States that tried to remove Trump from the ballot, did. The bare minimum would have been for Congress to convict him ceremonially, through impeachment. But, they failed to do that because Democrats didn’t have the votes.
That left only one option…bring charges against him in court, and have a jury decide whether or not his actions met the criteria.
https://www.commondreams.org/news/conservative-scholars-trump-disqualified
https://www.citizensforethics.org/news/analysis/legal-experts-across-the-ideological-spectrum-agree-the-14th-amendment-disqualifies-trump-from-holding-office/
The standard under the constitution is what the standard under the constitution is, not that of current civil prosecution under federal and state law.
Precedence for nullifying the entirety of an invalid appointment and its consequences exist, and were applied when courts unrolled the illegal hostile takeover of USIP
The constitution explicitly were written to only require acts of congress to pardon, but not an act of congress to decide someone was guilty. It’s not even close, that means courts gets to decide. SCOTUS lied.